Daniel Watters: What I've found really nice about scientific research, for sure, is that you can lay the best plans in the world, you can say, "Okay, this is what I want to investigate. This is what I'm hoping to find." And then you can kind of get halfway through and something real unexpected happens and you get a result that you just weren't expecting. You start to investigate that more and it brings you off on a bit of a tangent, but a tangent in a good way. So I think it's one of them things that are find quite empowering in science is that it's not always just a straight from point A to point B. There can be a point C, a point D, a point E in there as well and- Speaker 2: You're listening to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. Join Michael Holtz and his guests for conversations about all things ORAU. They'll talk about ORAU's storied history, our impact on an ever-changing world, our innovative, scientific and technical solutions for our customers, and our commitment to the communities where we do business. Welcome to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. Michael Holtz: Welcome to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. The NASA National Postdoctoral Program gives scientists at any level the opportunity to help NASA pursue its mission, while also experiencing the world's most diverse technology and expertise. I recently had the opportunity to talk to several NASA NPP fellows about their research, their personal stories, and what comes next in their careers. This episode features one of those conversations. I hope you'll enjoy it as much as I do. Daniel Watters, if you would, talk to me a little bit about who you are, what your current role is in the NASA NPP fellowship program, and then a bit about your background. How did you get to where you are? Daniel Watters: Sure. So I'm Daniel Watters. I'm a NASA Postdoctoral Program fellow at Marshall Space Flight Center, and I study global precipitation News satellites. So specifically what I do is I assess the performance of NASA's flagship precipitation product, which is produced using satellites, and I assess it using ground-based radars to see how accurate NASA's precipitation estimates are. So I currently do that at Marshall using their software systems and the way in which I got here, I studied physics and astrophysics back in England, and then went on to study some art sciences during my PhD, and saw a great opportunity to apply for the NASA Postdoctoral Program, and I was lucky enough to get it, and come over to Huntsville, Alabama. Michael Holtz: Awesome. Daniel, I have to imagine that measuring precipitation is really a critical issue now. We've got places in the western United States that are drying up and other places where it's flooding. So I imagine that keeps you on your toes a little bit. Daniel Watters: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, observing precipitation from space is very important, yeah, especially in today's day and age with climate change happening and, yeah, precipitation patterns are constantly evolving as well. So yeah, observing precipitation is very important. NASA works to do it from a spaceborne perspective because from the ground you require countries to have radar networks set up, which only some of the most developed countries do, and that only covers land-based areas. And there's issues with measuring precipitation from the ground already, such as mountainous regions. So what NASA acts to do is measure precipitation from space, so that you can get measurements not only over land, but over ocean as well, and using a continuous framework. So using the same satellite to measure precipitation everywhere, which is really helpful. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. Daniel, have you always been interested in science? Was science something that was a childhood fascination, dream or did you come to science later in your education? Daniel Watters: A little bit later in my education, I'd say. I was never quite keen on science when I was really, really young. I really liked [inaudible 00:04:56]- Michael Holtz: Okay. Daniel Watters: So mathematics was, yeah, really my passion when I was a young kid. And then as I was going through from elementary school into high school, I found that, yeah, for sure I started to realize that I still really like mathematics, but I liked to apply in mathematics as well, and physics was the good in between. It was nice to start applying that knowledge to real world problems. Michael Holtz: Right. Right, and obviously what you're working on is a very critical, real world problem in today's timeframes. Daniel Watters: Yeah, and it's one of them things that I think it's not something that I envisioned, envisaged. Sorry, envisioned, really messing up my words there. It's not something that I envisioned that I do from a young age. So, yeah, there was never any case of like, oh, I want to be a precipitation scientist when I'm older. It was always narrowing down to the tip of the pyramid. It was starting with, okay, I like numbers and mathematics, and then I like applying that, and I liked space science and Earth science, and that was a good combination of the two. And I also like storms an awful lot as well, so that really helped. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. It brings everything together. Yeah. Daniel Watters: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Michael Holtz: Like being a global storm chaser without having to- Daniel Watters: Yeah, yeah, the- Michael Holtz: ... get in the truck, right? Daniel Watters: ... the safety and comfort of a nice office or a nice home, for sure. Yeah, you get to see it, but yeah, not have to go out in it. Michael Holtz: Daniel, how long have you been in your fellowship? Daniel Watters: So I've been in my fellowship now for about 15 months. Michael Holtz: Okay. Daniel Watters: So yeah, I moved from England over to the United States in August, 2021, and got stuck straight into the NASA Postdoctoral Program fellowship. Yeah, and I've been working here in Huntsville, Alabama ever since. Michael Holtz: How's the cultural change? [inaudible 00:07:15]- Daniel Watters: Yeah, it's a [inaudible 00:07:16]- Michael Holtz: ... Huntsville, Alabama. Daniel Watters: Yeah, yeah, big cultural change. Yeah, I'm a lot more settled with it now, but I think when I first got here it was just so different, a lot more different than I was expecting. I was expecting... I'd never actually visited the United States before moving over here. So the opportunity was so good that it was a case of, the opportunity to go and work at NASA was too great to need to scout out the place first or wherever I was going. I always liked the idea of getting to see a bit of the US anyway. But yeah, it was a great reason for moving over and, yeah, the cultural differences were massive. I think just so many things, I think one of the main things for me was people are so, so friendly in the South, which was really, really lovely part of the culture here. Michael Holtz: [inaudible 00:08:18]. Daniel Watters: It was really nice to get used to, everyone's real friendly and talkative, which was great with moving over and getting used to a new place. And then there was just things that were just so different to me, like in England, I could walk wherever I wanted to go, even if it was an hour away, and I started to realize that I couldn't do that quite so easily in Huntsville. Michael Holtz: [inaudible 00:08:41]. Daniel Watters: So yeah, it was definitely, yeah, lots of different cultural differences. Michael Holtz: Sure, sure, and obviously, a huge impact on your career. You've uprooted your life basically. You're in Huntsville and pursuing what sounds like is a dream, some dream research. Daniel Watters: Yeah, I got to start precipitation research during my PhD. I was really intrigued by it, getting to do it during some undergraduate internships, then in my master's degree as well. And I got to learn the ropes of measuring precipitation from space and from the ground, and really enjoyed that. And the opportunity to, one, to get to go to NASA, world-class research institution was amazing. Michael Holtz: Sure. Daniel Watters: Ridiculously good opportunity. Definitely a dream, but also- Michael Holtz: Can't pass it up. Daniel Watters: ... well, to get to carry on with the kind of research that I really enjoy, have passion for as well was fantastic because I think that's the thing, I'd got to learn the ropes during my time in England, and then the mission that I was working on is a NASA driven mission anyway. They're the lead organization in that mission, and it was a case of to get to go from being external to NASA, to internal to NASA, to get to see the inner workings of the Global Precipitation Measurement mission and, yeah, to have that freedom in my research still where I got to learn all these things and then say, "Oh, I want to work a bit more on... Okay, how's the satellite doing? Where's it good and where's it bad?" It's really nice. Michael Holtz: Right, really awesome. Are there elements of working in science that you've found to be empowering? Daniel Watters: Yeah, absolutely. I think just coming back to that freedom element, I think working in science, the element of freedom that no two days are the same. So I really like that. I think what I've found really nice about scientific research, for sure, is that you can lay the best plans in the world, you can say, "Okay, this is what I want to investigate. This is what I'm hoping to find." And then you can kind of get halfway through and something real unexpected happens and you get a result that you just weren't expecting. You start to investigate that more and it brings you off on a bit of a tangent, but a tangent in a good way. So I think it's one of them things that are find quite empowering in science is that it's not always just a straight from point A to point B. There can be a point C, a point D, a point E in there as well, and you can actually get to a point where you're finding things that are beyond what you are hoping to find in the first place. Michael Holtz: Sure. Daniel Watters: So I think that's really nice, nice side of things. Keeps it very fresh. Michael Holtz: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Daniel, collaboration plays a big role in science. Talk about collaboration in the work that you're doing? Daniel Watters: So there's a lot of collaboration in the work that I'm doing. So I work with teams across the different NASA centers. I'm very lucky that I work to assess the performance of NASA's flagship precipitation product, called IMERG, and I get to work with that precipitation algorithm team at Goddard very frequently. So I'm always in weekly meetings with them and work very closely with them on assessing the performance of their product. So being able to do telecalls has been fantastic for that. I'm in Huntsville, they're in Maryland, but I'm still able to strike up good collaboration with them even though we're in different parts of the country. I also work with the validation or performance assessment teams, both at Marshall, so we're in Huntsville, Alabama. So in the NASA institution that I'm at. So I get to work closely with some of my colleagues there, but also colleagues in Wallops as well, the Wallops Flight Facility in Virginia. And then even external to NASA, I get to work with a validation expert at the University of Oklahoma. Michael Holtz: [inaudible 00:13:16]. Daniel Watters: So yeah, I'm getting really good experiences with, yeah, getting to work with some experts, which is really, really cool. Michael Holtz: Absolutely, that sounds great. I also know that the fellowship program is a mentored experience. Talk about working with having a mentor, and also have you had the opportunity to mentor [inaudible 00:13:40] up-and-coming, younger scientists? Daniel Watters: Sure, yeah. So yeah, in the NASA Postdoctoral Program, everyone has an advisor. My advisor is fantastic, really great. So he mentors me in... My work is on the validation performance assessment side of precipitation, and at Marshall he's the head of the validation network, so a software system designed to validate NASA's precipitation products. So having him as a mentor has been fantastic. He's got me to understand how NASA works and get to learn about what software system that NASA has for assessing the performance of their precipitation estimates, but also provide me the opportunity to both learn and also provide some knowledge of my own as well. So to have better freedom to try and add to that validation network, which is actually the purpose of my fellowship, is to add further work to what's already been produced at Marshall. So the mentorship is really good. I get to learn from someone who's in their mid-career, has been through the early career side of things, and to help me integrate into NASA and their way of doing research, but also to be able to bring in some ideas of my own, which really nice. And then on the mentorship side as well, I've had great opportunities to talk to some students back at home, back in England. So I've been able to provide some guidance to young scientists. I was recently talking to a young scientist in high school who- Michael Holtz: [inaudible 00:15:49]. Daniel Watters: ... wants to pursue astronomy, so different to the area that I'm in. Michael Holtz: Sure. Daniel Watters: But able to provide some guidance for that path from going from high school into college, and to try to get to study astronomy, and give all the tips and tricks that- Michael Holtz: [inaudible 00:16:06]. Daniel Watters: ... I wish I had, when I was doing it at the time. The good things and the bad things to do. Michael Holtz: Yeah, yeah. Well, so along those lines, what advice would you give, or do you give, to scientists who want to follow in your footsteps? Daniel Watters: So I think the guidance that I generally give is I definitely work hard. I think it's one of them just to use that motivation for your enjoyment of science to really, really push hard on your studies, try and understand as many elements of things as you can and get through your examinations for sure. But yeah, so guidance that I give is, yeah, along the lines of essentially, what are good subjects to study? What goes well with the subjects that you want to study? What does the pathway look like from going from high school into college? How does a subject such as physics differ from high school to college? Because it does, it becomes more mathematical. What are the skills that you require and where's the synergy? What goes good with physics? Well, mathematics and all the mathematical laws are good things to study if you're studying physics as well. Michael Holtz: [inaudible 00:17:40]. Daniel Watters: But yeah, then advice on going further. So getting into your career as well. The main thing that I tell younger people, for sure, is internships. Internships are key during your undergraduate studies because you're learning all this research, you're getting to see bits of research, you learn theory, but when do internships, especially if you do a research internship, you get to have just a little four or five week taste of what applying your theory to research actually looks like and feels like. And it gives you a good idea of, okay, is this something that I'd like to do a bit more of, going forward in the future, or is it something that I just absolutely hate, I don't want to do? So I think that was the thing for me. I did an internship with a precipitation scientist and absolutely loved it. And it was the sort of thing where then I'd go back the next summer and the summer after that, and then that flowed into my masters and my PhD then. And I think that's probably one of the key things to, one, to boost your resume a bit, to have something a bit different to just completed in your studies, but also to start to get that feel, that bit of experience for, okay, what does research actually entail, and how can I use all of these things that I've learned from books to actually help in the real world as well? Michael Holtz: Right, right. So you're in your second year of your fellowship. Why would you recommend a NASA NPP fellowship to someone else? Daniel Watters: So I would recommend a NASA fellowship for many different reasons. I think some of the key ones are, for sure, I'd say, to get to work in a world-class institution for research. I think that's just a definitely massive opportunity, to also get to work with some of the world's greatest scientists as well. NASA is attracting the best scientists around. And to get to go into that culture and to get to learn from people with more experience than yourself, to get to learn their methods which are at the frontiers of science, it's fantastic opportunity. But also I think just to get to experience somewhere new as well. I came from doing my PhD at a university. I got to move to a different country. So I get new life experience as well through doing the NASA fellowship. So both inside of work and outside of work, and to get to experience like that, a new culture, a new place as well. And to get to work with scientists from different parts of the world as well. I think that's a very exciting opportunity. So I think the other thing then with the NASA fellowship is the freedom that it gives you. You're writing a proposal for the part of research that you have real passion in. You're designing your own two or three-year project that you're going to go and pursue, and it instantly makes you more independent. You have to come up with a plan, which you may not have done before. I certainly hadn't come up with a research plan before. So already it starts to make you more independent as a researcher. It gives you an opportunity to pursue an area of science that you really want to pursue as well. You're the person who decides what research is getting done and fitting something to NASA's goals. You're pushing, you're the expert in that area. You're the one that's coming in and pursuing this research on behalf of NASA. So I think that's a really good opportunity, both for development, so in terms of becoming just more independent in your work, but also in terms of advancing your research. It's a great, great opportunity. Michael Holtz: Yeah. Awesome. Last question for you, Daniel. What brings you joy? Daniel Watters: I really enjoy traveling. So I think I get a lot of joy from traveling. So getting to move over to the United States was a great opportunity. I'm getting to a new part of the world that I'd never been in before. I think, yeah, a lot of joy from my work, from getting to study and getting to do research on things that I really like, and getting to move somewhere new is a great joy as well. I think it's fantastic opportunity in life. Michael Holtz: Have you gotten to see much of the country, outside of Huntsville, since you've been here? Daniel Watters: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially a lot more recently. So I've got see to a lot of the south now. So I've got to go to a few different spots like Birmingham and Chattanooga, Atlanta. So that's been great opportunities and yeah, I got to see Denver a few times as well through work. Michael Holtz: [inaudible 00:23:29]. Daniel Watters: So even that, through doing the fellowship, I'm getting to go and see different parts of the US that, yeah, never been to. So yeah, again, to see both my area of the US and different parts of it as well. Michael Holtz: Very cool. Well, if you ever get up to Knoxville, I'll take you [inaudible 00:23:50]- Daniel Watters: [inaudible 00:23:50]. Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, [inaudible 00:23:54]. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. That's my last question. That's all I've got for you. So... Daniel Watters: Okay, cheers. Well, thank you Michael, really appreciate it. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Thank you very much. I appreciate the time, Daniel. Daniel Watters: No problem. Thank you. Michael Holtz: Have a good afternoon. Daniel Watters: Cheers, you too. Bye. Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. To learn more about any of the topics discussed by our experts, visit www.orau.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, @orau, and on Instagram, @orautogether. If you like Further Together, the ORAU podcast, we would appreciate you giving us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your reviews will help more people find the podcast.