Dr. Laura Fackr...: I like teaching a lot in a lot of different aspects, and I love working in the lab and in the science, but I feel like the part that was most inspiring for me is when I could take that and help somebody else do the same thing. So I just loved the opportunity to work one-on-one with students, and have them... And you see their eyes light up when they suddenly get an idea and they got it, and they are just on that path. Speaker 1: You're listening to Further Together the ORAU Podcast. Join Michael Holtz and his guests for conversations about all things ORAU. They'll talk about ORAU's storied history, our impact on an ever-changing world, our innovative scientific and technical solutions for our customers, and our commitment to the communities where we do business. Welcome to Further Together the ORAU Podcast. Michael Holtz: Welcome to Further Together the ORAU Podcast. Recently I had the opportunity to speak with several NASA National Postdoctoral Program research fellows about the amazing work that they're doing. I've got to tell you, I think you'll agree with me, their work is amazing, and it's very interesting. If you're a space junkie like I am, you're going to nerd out on these conversations. Enjoy. Well Dr. Laura Fackrell, thank you so much for joining me for Further Together the ORAU Podcast. I want to start with talking about a little bit about who you are, what your current role is with the NASA NPP Fellows Program, and then a little bit about your background. How did you get to where you are? Dr. Laura Fackr...: So I'm a new fellow. I just started this last August. I've only been working on this a few months, but I'm at JPL, is the location that they proposed the project to. I'm leading the project that I proposed. So that project focuses on the role of nitrogen in lunar habitats, specifically with... if you grow plants or have certain microbes in the soils or in the mediums, how those affect nitrogen in its balance and what role will that play for future lunar habitats, and how can we make sure that's sustainable and actually works. Michael Holtz: Cool. So looking forward to potentially colonizing the moon or- Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. Michael Holtz: ... other planets as the case may be. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. And then how would that help us on earth to have better and more sustainable agriculture here too? Michael Holtz: Awesome. Okay, that makes perfect sense. So have you always been interested in the sciences? Is this something that... Has science been something you've loved since you were a kid, or did you come late to the world of science? Dr. Laura Fackr...: A little bit of both. I have always loved science. I've been in STEM for a long time. I always did well in science in high school. That was where I found a niche where I was like, "This is something that I can succeed at," but I didn't really know what specifically I wanted to do with it. I just knew that I liked science. So I got into college and I just picked a major that sounded sciency and that sounded like I would enjoy it and just went with it. So what that involved, the first classes I took was a geology class, and that semester... This is my first or second semester, I can't remember exactly, of college, and I'm in this geology class. In this semester, we took a field trip to this really beautiful location and looked at the geology and I was like, "I get take field trips in college. I feel like I'm going back to grade school and just having fun outside." From that moment, I was hooked. I was like, "That's what I want." Michael Holtz: I'm in. I love that. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yes. It just inspired me to have this specific avenue of STEM. We didn't have geology classes in high school, so I never really even realized that was an option. But just taking that course, I just fell in love with it. That led me this very long journey to where I got to work now, where I focus on how do you geology and biology interact, especially on other planets, and how can we use that to our advantage to help us have an exploring space, but also to be more sustainable in how we take care of our own planet. Michael Holtz: I love that. So eyes on two prizes as it were. I love that a lot. I know that you're new, as a NASA fellow having not been in your role for an entire year or just a few months, but how has your experience impacted your career so far? Dr. Laura Fackr...: I feel like so far it's been pretty positive. Just having the name NASA in part of your title or that you're a NASA fellow, there's an advantage to that, in some ways. Michael Holtz: Sure. Dr. Laura Fackr...: I feel like it's been really helpful in that sense and it's helped direct and help in making decisions as far as what I'm going to do once I have a permanent position because as a postdoc, I'm still in that flowing flux area where I haven't landed somewhere permanent yet, but the hope is the next step would be... That that would be the next steps. So that helps you make those decisions. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. Okay. Awesome. I have to imagine, when you talk to friends and family like, "I work for NASA." Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah, [inaudible 00:05:37]. Michael Holtz: "I'm a NASA fellow," right? Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. I'm a fellow. I do research at NASA. Michael Holtz: That has to be like, "Oh, we know about them," right? Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. Michael Holtz: In terms of science in general, what elements of working in STEM have you found to be the most empowering for you? Dr. Laura Fackr...: I feel like, as far as... and specifically the word empowering, that makes me just think of back on my experience as a grad student. I just had a lot of opportunities and mentors who were very supportive in a way that they empowered me to design my own projects. I wasn't just working on something that was already designed and it's all set up, and all I had to do is click a box. I got to design my own projects and really take an integrated part in leading what I wanted to do with my research, at a very early stage, which I thought was really helpful. Michael Holtz: That's really cool. Mentorship is really important. I know certainly in the role that you have now, but I imagine throughout your experience, master's degree, doctoral degree as well, talk about some of the mentors that you have had and their impact on you specifically. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. I think I was pretty fortunate in that my first major advisor, when I was a master's student, was supportive in that exact way, where he let me... I presented an idea and presented what I wanted to do with it, and he is like, "This sounds like a valid project. Go for it." Michael Holtz: Cool. Dr. Laura Fackr...: And really supported me in that and helped me to find the people that I needed to connect to in order to do those because he wasn't a direct expert in any of those projects, but he had aspects of it. But he knew people who were, and so he could connect me. So having that ability to connect me to the right people and to support me in developing that project and to steer me, because I was still learning, and how to actually do that, was really, really helpful. I think it was a huge part of what helped me to continue in STEM. Michael Holtz: Awesome. You just sort of mentioned this a little bit, but there's also the important role of collaboration of your mentor not having direct experience, but he can point you in the direction of people who do. Science doesn't happen in a vacuum, so you're always collaborating. Just talk about that from your experience as well, and with your current project, if you can. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. Collaboration has always been a really big part of the projects I've been on. I think geology is a naturally interdisciplinary science. It takes pieces of a lot of different parts of science and brings them together. So it automatically creates opportunities to collaborate in ways that you don't have to work at it. It's already there. So that's been really helpful. There's been a lot of opportunities where I just had lots of different... Because of my projects we're focused on so many different ways of bringing biology, and geology, and chemistry together into one place and trying to understand how they interact in this big picture, my advisor committees had lots of different experts. So collaborating with many different perspectives, also in working with different teams and different internships that I've had opportunities at. I had an internship at APL one summer, and we worked together. There were a lot of different opportunities to do collaborative work. But one in particular was they had this... They called it an ACE run. I don't know what that stood for. They didn't know either, but it was basically a two-week event where you participated together as a mock mission plan. So you planned a mission to do a specific thing, and they brought different... They had lots of different engineering interns and then a lot of... They had a group of science interns. And then we literally were collaboratively planning a project to send a mission to an asteroid that was going to have a near-Earth encounter. We planned out that mission and did use our different sets of expertise to work together to create a mission that answered the science objectives, but also was actually feasible to do with the engineering. There was a lot of back and forth and... Yeah. Michael Holtz: A lot of players to make that logic become a reality. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. And know how to communicate when you're an expert in this, but they're an expert in this and how do you communicate together and help each other understand what you're trying to accomplish. Michael Holtz: Yeah, yeah. That makes perfect sense. Have you had the opportunity to mentor up and coming scientists yourself? Dr. Laura Fackr...: To an extent, I haven't been a professor, but I've been a TA or a teaching assistant. In the particular teaching assistant that I was... I was the writing teaching assistant, which meant that I was basically teaching. I was in charge of helping the students develop their skills and communicating and writing for science disciplines specifically, which can be really challenging for students, especially if they haven't had a lot of experience writing. Some of them are very intimidated by it, and so it was a really good opportunity to just be a mentor and helping them understand how they could communicate their ideas and develop that really important skill set and be there to... When they would write a project and then we would have, for lack of a better word, an interview about their paper, and look at it together and collaborate about what they could do to improve it and all these different things to help them develop those skills. Michael Holtz: Awesome. Okay. Dr. Laura Fackr...: That's actually the part of science that I love a lot, is that one-on-one mentoring. That's the part of science and the part of teaching that I love the most, is that opportunity. Michael Holtz: Okay. Talk more about that, just the ability, I guess, to have someone invest in you from mentor to you, but then you to mentor someone else. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah, because I feel like that was the part of... Because I like teaching a lot in a lot of different aspects, and I love working in the lab and in the science. But I feel like the part that was most inspiring for me is when I could take that and help somebody else do the same thing. I just loved the opportunity to work one-on-one with students and have them... You see their eyes light up, and they suddenly get an idea, and they got it, and they are just on that path. Michael Holtz: Right, right. That's awesome. What advice, Laura, would you give to an up-and-coming scientist who may be following in your footsteps? Dr. Laura Fackr...: I would say, when I first think of that question, it's like don't be afraid to pave your own path. Don't be afraid to design your own path and move forward, but also pay attention to what's already available. Take advantage of those paths that have already been paved for you and leave paths behind you, so others can follow. I guess that in general, but also just... And then also, find mentors that can be helpful to you in that in endeavor. Look for people that will support you in the efforts that you're seeking, because it can be hard sometimes to find an advocate and to find those people that can support you in that way. I was very fortunate in that, but sometimes not everybody is. So that can be really difficult. So look for those who'll support you in that path and who will be helpful to you in helping to establish yourself as an independent scientist. But also take those skills and use it to be collaborative and use it to help others follow in your footsteps too. Pay it forward in a way. Michael Holtz: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I know you've only been an NPP fellow for a few months. Why would you recommend the Fellowship to others? Dr. Laura Fackr...: I think it's been really helpful so far. There's been a lot of challenges and things that were not necessarily expected already, even in the first few months, but there's also been a lot of good opportunities. Just like, I've learned things and had experiences that helped me to develop myself as a professional scientist in ways that I probably wouldn't have without that opportunity. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. Can we talk about the challenges for a second? What challenges, to the extent that you can, of course, and how did you overcome the challenge? Dr. Laura Fackr...: I think most recently, it's just like, I've had such a fortunate experience to have all these supportive mentors that have had very similar styles and how they've run projects and how they've done things. So now, it's a very different approach to some of those things, and to learn how to work with different people who approach the problem differently and how to do that and work together with new experiences- Michael Holtz: Sure. Dr. Laura Fackr...: ... which has been good for me. Michael Holtz: Yeah, yeah. It gets you out of your- Dr. Laura Fackr...: Comfort zone. Michael Holtz: ... comfort zone. You flex a little bit, right? Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. Learn how to communicate more effectively and forces me to learn how to demonstrate myself as a scientist, but also how to work with new groups. So that's been really helpful. Also, there's a lot of... So specific institutions have different rules, and you have to know how to follow that and to navigate completely new systems that require quite a bit of learning curve. So there's a lot of that. That's really helpful because that's something that you need to have in your tool belt when you're actually trying to establish yourself and make your... If you want to lead your own lab, you have to have that tool set, so I feel like it- Michael Holtz: Sure. Dr. Laura Fackr...: ... provides that opportunity to develop that tool set. Michael Holtz: Right because every institution is going to have- Dr. Laura Fackr...: [inaudible 00:15:30]. Michael Holtz: ... their own- Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. And more of those soft skills that you don't always get an opportunity to do as a student. It helps you develop those soft skills that let you actually be more effective as a scientist, even though they're not directly science. Michael Holtz: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Last question for you, Laura, what brings you joy? Dr. Laura Fackr...: Oh, a lot of things. Michael Holtz: Good. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah, I'm a very scientific person, and I'm always love science, but I'm also a pretty religious person. So there's a lot of things, like crossover, that brings me joy in that, that spiritual aspect of life coupled with the scientific aspect of life. But for me, I find it hugely inspirational and motivational. That brings me joy. But also just understanding that joy isn't always about being happy, that life isn't always fun. Things happen. Michael Holtz: It's not always your Instagram feed, right? Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. Yeah. So I think greater resilience and ability to respond to the negative aspects of life also helps increase my joy overall too. And then I have a greater ability to handle challenges and to remain resilient despite opposition. I think that's important to realize. People think life's going to be happy all the time, and that's what they want, but it's like that's actually not a very realistic option. To learn how to find joy, even when life doesn't necessarily look joyful, I think is important too. Michael Holtz: Yeah, yeah. Do you mind if I ask you, I know I said last question, but- Dr. Laura Fackr...: You're fine. Michael Holtz: When you talked about the blending of the spiritual and the scientific, I know that can be difficult for some people because there's the black and whiteness over here and the gray. Spirituality can be black and white for some people, but a lot of it is the gray area, right? Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. Michael Holtz: So how does that come together for you? Dr. Laura Fackr...: That's been a big challenge my entire life because it's like, I grew up in a very religious background, but loved science. So figuring out how to help them work together was a big challenge in my early life. And then now that they do work together for me, personally, in my personal life, it's been really helpful. And that I can find inspiration in both, and it... I don't know. It gives me a unique perspective that helps me to understand, I don't know, my purpose here and- Michael Holtz: Okay. Dr. Laura Fackr...: ... have hope in that purpose, at least what I envision that purpose as. Michael Holtz: Sure. Sure. That makes perfect sense. Okay. Dr. Laura Fackr...: It gives me motivation for how I take my science and actually use it to help benefit people. It's not just about... It is about the discovery, but it's also about how does that discovery actually help people in life? Michael Holtz: Right. So there's vocation, avocation at the same time? Dr. Laura Fackr...: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Holtz: Okay. I love that. That makes perfect sense to me. All right. Well, that truly was my last question. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Okay, yeah. Michael Holtz: We can talk about spirituality and science for 45 minutes by itself, but I'm not going to go there. Dr. Laura Fackr...: It's all good. Michael Holtz: Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I really appreciate it. Dr. Laura Fackr...: You're welcome. Michael Holtz: All right. Thank you so much. Dr. Laura Fackr...: Have a good day. Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Further Together the ORAU Podcast. To learn more about any of the topics discussed by our experts, visit Www.orau.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn at ORAU, and on Instagram @orautogether. If you like Further Together the ORAU Podcast, we would appreciate you giving us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your reviews will help more people find the podcast.