Dr. Reinier Jan...: Do something you like. Find something you like and do that because I've always followed what I like, followed my passions and that keeps you going. I've also seen persons who do what they are supposed to do or from an external influence are thought to be doing and they get burned out on that really quickly. And whatever job you choose, you're going to be doing that for a long time in principle. So pick something you like. Michael Holtz: So your heart should be in it. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Your heart should be in it. And if it's no longer in it, then think about doing something different. Speaker 3: You're listening to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. Join Michael Holtz and his guests for conversations about all things ORAU. They'll talk about ORAU storied history, our impact on an ever-changing world, our innovative, scientific and technical solutions for our customers and our commitment to the communities where we do business. Welcome to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. Michael Holtz: Welcome to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. Recently I had the opportunity to speak with several NASA National Postdoctoral Program research fellows about the amazing work that they're doing. And I got to tell you, I think you'll agree with me, their work is amazing and it's very interesting. If you're a space junkie like I am, you're going to nerd out on these conversations. Enjoy. Dr. Janssen, welcome to Further Together. Glad to have you. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah, thanks for inviting me. Happy to talk about what I've been doing. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. So tell me a little bit about who you are, your current role in the NASA NPP Fellowship program and then a bit about your background. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Okay. So I'm Reinier Jensen. I'm currently towards the end of my fourth year in the NPP program. I've been, in those four years, at the NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory working on novel detectors for far-infrared astrophysics. My background, I'm originally from the Netherlands where I also did my PhD degree at the Delft University of Technology, doing part of my technical research there and a bit of my astrophysics research at Leiden University. And I spent two years as a postdoc near Paris before I joined JPL. Michael Holtz: Awesome. So Reinier, was science always something that was interesting to you? Was that something that you gravitated to in college? I guess, being in the Netherlands, how did science find you? Dr. Reinier Jan...: I think I naturally gravitated towards that. So both my parents are fairly strong, what we call [inaudible 00:03:05] so science background, math, physics, that kind of thing. So I naturally in high school gravitated to subjects like math and physics and enjoyed that. On the other hand, I also never had a clear vision of what I wanted to be. I was not like, "I want to become a doctor," or, "I want to become a lawyer." Michael Holtz: I want to be an astrophysicist, right? Dr. Reinier Jan...: No, so that never came up to me. So actually after high school going to university, I took the easy way out and I said, "I like physics in high school so I'll just going to continue studying physics." Michael Holtz: Okay. Dr. Reinier Jan...: And then in my first year of physics at university, there was an optional program to do some astrophysics which I thought, "That sounds cool, let's try that out." And as I started doing more of that, what I found very cool about it was that astrophysics combined all the separate topics that you need that you do. So you do some electromagnetism and you do some mechanical dynamics and you do some thermal dynamics and then you do one astrophysics course and it takes a little bit of that and a little bit of that and a little bit of that and that you combine and then you can slowly understand a lot of things which are going on in our universe. So that drew me in and never let me go, basically. Michael Holtz: And here you are. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah. Michael Holtz: So being from the Netherlands, on the one hand I have to assume you knew what NASA was, you knew about NASA. How did you find the NPP program? Dr. Reinier Jan...: So I almost have to say the NPP program found me. Michael Holtz: Okay. Dr. Reinier Jan...: So when I was graduating my PhD degree, I sent around to various persons in the field, "Here's my PhD thesis. I'm going to graduate then and then." And actually the day before my defense, my current NPP supervisor sent me an email, "This looks great. Would you like to write or come do a postdoc at JPL and potentially through the NPP program?" At that point, I actually had to say no because I just accepted the position in Paris and for personal reasons, I didn't want to leave Europe at that moment. But a year later, there was a clear opportunity for both me and my wife to make a big jump across the ocean. So I wrote back and said, "Is that offer still on the table?" And my current supervisor said yes so then we wrote an NPP proposal and that was granted. Michael Holtz: And four years later, here you are. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah, four years later, I'm still here. So yeah, it's been great. I've definitely been enjoying my time. Michael Holtz: That's awesome. Was there culture shock from Paris to here, but also from the Netherlands to the United States? Dr. Reinier Jan...: I've never experienced it as a big culture shock. Michael Holtz: Okay. Dr. Reinier Jan...: What I noticed really helped, compared to Paris, for example, was my French is okay, but not great. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. Dr. Reinier Jan...: So in Paris, there was a clear language barrier and that is of course gone here because my English is effectively fluent. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. Okay. Dr. Reinier Jan...: I noticed that really helped to integrate with people. And yeah, things are different but what I also say is I am now in California. Michael Holtz: Right. Dr. Reinier Jan...: And California might be meant... And on top of that, I'm in a scientific community and both of these things might mean that now experience a bias population of the US which is more European minded, let's put it that way. Michael Holtz: I gotcha. That makes sense. So you've been a NASA NPP fellow for four years, as you said. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah. Michael Holtz: I have to imagine there's been a tremendous impact on your career. And looking ahead, what happens next for Dr. Reinier Janssen? Dr. Reinier Jan...: So that is a good question to which I don't have a definitive answer yet. So there's a number of, I've been applying to various positions including tenure track or permanent staff position at universities back in Europe but also, at least my current supervisor has expressed intent to maybe keep me on at JPL. There's folks who I know work on similar topics at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Boulder who are interested. So a lot of options. So as I said to other people, I will probably be doing research somewhere next year. I still don't know where. Michael Holtz: But continuing the work nonetheless. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah, definitely continuing within the field and I'm very happy that NPP basically allowed me or has elevated my career to a degree that's possible now. Michael Holtz: And people want you, it sounds like. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah, people want me. So yeah, when I was thinking about what does NPP really learn here? What have I really learned these four years? And for me, that's really been an evolution from a researcher who takes on a task and can't do it on his own but really now I've noticed a shift within myself that I've gone from taking on a part of a project to really having the confidence to lead part of the projects. That's a great feeling to notice. Michael Holtz: Just to follow up on that, let me skip ahead a few questions and talk about the collaborative process because you mentioned that a little bit. You're leading part of the project but you also work on a team. So as you said, you're not doing the research alone, you're not working on this by yourself. Just talk through that process and how meaningful and important that is. Dr. Reinier Jan...: I think it's unavoidable, especially in my line of research, which is experimental physics. There's so much things involved. So the team on the largest scale, I'm now in a NASA balloon mission so that's a group of, must be 40-ish people within that, a number of six or so, six or seven PIs from different institutes across the entire United States and then all their graduate students and postdocs and all working together on that. Then within that, I started as picking up the JPL Caltech contribution which are the detectors, [inaudible 00:10:33] Michael Holtz: Okay. Dr. Reinier Jan...: And I've definitely evolved into somebody more or less leaving that effort from JPL, so to say. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. Dr. Reinier Jan...: And then within JPL, I collaborate closely with a fabrication engineer who makes the detectors. I'm supervising a graduate student at Caltech who works with me in the lab to do the measurements, the data analysis and then working with another two graduate students at the University of Illinois to do simulations, to do designs, to interface basically between our detectors and the [inaudible 00:11:18] that they eventually will need to be housed in. So that's a lot of collaborations all over the place and on different branches of what we actually do and what we need to get ready in order to fly this thing eventually. Michael Holtz: Right. And as you said, it's not just collaboration in your lab, it's collaboration with students and scientists around the country. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah, it's around the country. And besides that, I'm also internationally still collaborating on a number of astrophysics research. Michael Holtz: It's worldwide. Worldwide collaboration. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah, one of my collaboration meetings literally is worldwide. Michael Holtz: That's amazing. You talked a little bit about you're working with a graduate student at Caltech and at the University of Illinois. So in a sense, you're serving as mentors to those grad students and you've clearly, I assume, been mentored yourself. Talk about the importance of mentorship, being mentored but then also serving as a mentor for others and the value that mentorship plays in scientific endeavor. Dr. Reinier Jan...: I think the main value that it plays is that it instills, not so much knowledge, but almost more values. How do you treat your colleagues? How do you go about certain things? And that, maybe coming back to what's a culture shock, I do think that there is a different culture between, or not a very strongly different culture, but there can be differences in culture between fields, between countries, between institutes, between everything because I have, for example, was very much mentored in an open collaborative environment. And for example, being now in the US, I already have to be aware that there are literally some laws that would prevent me from being as open and collaborative as I've been instilled to do... Michael Holtz: Okay. Dr. Reinier Jan...: ... Towards, for example, for an institute. Michael Holtz: I got it. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Because of certain regulations from the State Department. Michael Holtz: Gotcha. Security concerns. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Security concerns basically, yeah. Michael Holtz: Okay. And what about being a mentor for younger scientists? Why is that important to you? Dr. Reinier Jan...: Maybe it's a selfish answer but I do enjoy seeing them grow. Michael Holtz: Okay. Dr. Reinier Jan...: I do enjoy trying to pass on my knowledge and values towards others and then seeing the return on investment so to say, seeing really these graduate students grow into going from maybe a shy person to really picking up a project and then at some point coming back with results like, "Whoa, okay, that's great." And seeing them hit their stride is really cool. Michael Holtz: Awesome. I love that answer. Is there an element of STEM or of science in general that you have found to be the most empowering? Dr. Reinier Jan...: I think for me, it is, again, a mindset thing. I think a lot of science is being able to think about the problem, reduce it to its core components, be levelheaded about issues, so to say, and really think about why is this happening and thinking towards solutions. And I think it's more widely applicable than just science, or at least the science which you're working on. And that, I think for me, always has been a great value. And seeing other people recognized me, "Oh, we need to have this or that done." And that's not necessarily a science problem but also a, we have an issue and we need to talk to the board of our sports club. Who do we put forward? We should put an ear forward because he can look at the problem and word things in a way that are logical and take to, some degree, the emotion out which in some cases just can be more of an obstacle than something else. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Yeah, emotions can become obstacles in their own [crosstalk 00:16:17], isn't there? Dr. Reinier Jan...: Right. Michael Holtz: Speaking of, can you talk about a time that you faced a sizable obstacle and then how you overcame that? Dr. Reinier Jan...: I think one of the main obstacles which I've experienced during my career was early on in my PhD when I had found a result which I was confident was the right result but it was so orthogonal to the current knowledge that it took me a while to convince my supervisors that this was really the case. And how I overcome that is on one hand, I just stood by my results and said, "Yeah, this is what I see." And in the end, I think it just took me talking to other people, but also my supervisor talking to other people independently and showing these results to other people and slowly convincing them. And some people are like, "Whoa, this is a cool result." They're immediately on board. And others take a bit more convincing and ask a bit more in-depth questions which they try to poke holes in your results. And I think that's only good because I've also worked on projects where you are on yourself poking holes in your results because you don't believe it. But I think just slowly trying to convince and allowing people to review and ask, "What's going on here?" Then slowly you get traction. And in the end, it was not necessarily me who convinced my supervisor, but another person who asked, "Wait, that's a really cool result." And then basically my supervisor came back to me and was like, "I come back on my earlier statement that we should do the paper this way. We should go your original route." Michael Holtz: Right, right. Excellent. Reiner, what advice would you give to an up and coming scientist who may want to follow in your footsteps? Dr. Reinier Jan...: The advice I always give, and that's not necessarily for scientists, but I would like to say that goes for everyone. Do something you like. Find something you like and do that because I've always followed what I like, followed my passions, and that keeps you going. I've also seen persons who do what they are supposed to do or from an external influence are thought to be doing and they get burned out on that really quickly. And whatever job you choose, you're going to be doing that for a long time, in principle. So pick something you like. Michael Holtz: So your heart should be in it. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Your heart should be in it. And if it's no longer in it, then think about doing something different because people think that switching field is hard but if you ask around, there's a lot of examples of people doing something completely different than what they were trained to do and many of my friends say what I learned in university... Yeah, a way of thinking, yes. But other than that, no. Michael Holtz: Yeah. I've talked to several of your NPP colleagues who have said, "This was not the path that I started on," and they found a new path while they were studying. Or what they thought they liked in high school, they found something else in undergraduate or graduate school. Dr. Reinier Jan...: And in that sense, I'm a bad example. I linearly follow continuous... For me, it's a fairly linear path and then break on my end, "I don't like this anymore," I go and do something else. But as you say, many examples who do, so don't be afraid to do that. Michael Holtz: Right, absolutely. You've been an NPP fellow for four years. I would assume you would recommend the fellowship to others. Why would you recommend the NASA NPP fellowship to other folks? Dr. Reinier Jan...: I think it is an amazing opportunity to get to institutes which are generally very well known within their field. At least within my field with the group I'm in, is very well renowned and regarded and this is just a great opportunity to go and work there and get that experience and that growth. And yeah, I think the main... And that's another point I think, and I've only realized that half ways. My supervisor really needed to employ that on me. You have your own funding so you're a lot more independent than sponsored from a host institute. So you have a lot more flexibility in following your passion, following what you like. Michael Holtz: And you're following your research because you've proposed the project that you're working on has gotten funded so you're not doing someone else's work. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Exactly. Michael Holtz: Right. I love that. Every one of your colleagues, I think has echoed the same thing as I've talked to them. Dr. Janssen, last question for you. What brings you joy? Dr. Reinier Jan...: Doing something I like. Being with people I like. Hanging out. That's another thing maybe. Being with people you like and hanging out with people you like. Also look, again, advice for future people. Don't only think what you're working on. Also think about who you'll be working with because that is going to be maybe even more important than also what you're doing. Michael Holtz: It sets the tone, doesn't it? Dr. Reinier Jan...: It sets the tone and it makes a huge difference. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Dr. Janssen, thank you so much for spending this time with me. I really appreciate it. Congratulations on four years in the fellowship program and I look forward to hearing and seeing what happens next with you. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Yeah, thank you for having me. I really had a nice time doing this. Thanks. Michael Holtz: Great. Thanks, have a great day. Dr. Reinier Jan...: Thank you. Speaker 3: Thank you for listening to Further Together, the ORAU podcast. To learn more about any of the topics discussed by our experts, visit www.ORAU.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn at ORAU and on Instagram at orautogether. 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